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Post by dizgrace on Jan 8, 2021 2:34:58 GMT
Good morning!
tldr: it may be related to creatures that spawn pre-buffed. It's not related to stacked SoVs, Curse, stat changes (on player char).
What is the sov bug? Cleric or druid casters (drale, trighton, sendauntra ++) will every now and then make things a little bit extra spicy by throwing in a Storm of Vengeance that has a DC of around 120+ and does about 250-350 electric and 250-350 acid on a single pop.
After a single hit - seemingly randomly ordered - the spell returns to regular DC & damage in subsequent rounds.
A similar situation can occur with Evards, but with some variations.
It's tempting to say it applies to all placeble spells that deal damage, and have epic damage mod, but I don't think I've experienced it with blade barrier, but I vaguely recall getting some serious damage from one or two fire spells and acid fogs (but it's easy to get that mixed up, since there are quite a few bosses with serious amounts of caster levels that also use those spells).
But I'm somewhat comfortable saying Blade Barrier doesn't get spicy since I've spent a decent amount of time in those, with regular casters as well as bosses, and imp eva wouldn't be an issue due to the kind of DCs we're normally talking about.
E.g
round 1: dc 45, 30 elec, 30 acid
round 2: same
round 3: dc 127, 350 elec, 350 acid
round 4: dc 45, 30 elec, 30 acid
round 5: dc 45, 30 elec, 30 acid
etc
I've had this happen on the very first round, after only a single SoV cast , without any penalties applied to my character. With buffed as well as seemingly unbuffed casters
I guess you could argue, at least from a masochist point of view, that a bit spicy, and who gives a churp. But, I guess figuring out how things work is kind of a thing, so please, if you'll be so kind, bear with me.
[edit: seem it applies to forgies too, so I literally have no clue. forget everything prior to and after good morning.. - that's not completely true. The other stuff still maintains a certain degree of value, but mostly not. Sten put me in my place, hehe]
[second edit. Sten was right, but also a bit wrong: it doesn't affect dc, or make sense in terms of all/certain spells. Placeables, I think - but I'm totally pushing this) may be limited to spells that you cannot reapeatedly provoke (like bbs or flame walls)
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Post by dizgrace on Jan 8, 2021 13:40:52 GMT
Oh, I completely forgot to say, curiously, didn't get any sov bugs while doing sanctum experiment. Not a single incident for 1,8m exp. That suggests something. Cause, say, in dm, it'll happen ish once per three clearings. But, since I was fire immune, I didn't notice the situations wherein which I might've been exposed to similar effects from incendiary cloud, and apparently that's a somewhat frequent issue.
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Post by chreelister on Jan 8, 2021 14:50:36 GMT
From what I remember, and I probably shouldn't be saying this, but the root problem of the bug is to get your stats in the negative adding mod, like 8, which is -1 to mods, which somehow starts back over at 255 and goes down from there. So my thinking is that the spell fires, all is good, say your a Cleric or the creature is a Cleric and you have to have at least say 19 Wisdom to cast a level 9 spell, say Storm of Vengeance, but when it comes to the saving throw part of the spell or you know the spell last for so many rounds, you somehow get your Wisdom to drop to 8. So now instead of saying adding +4 for having 19 Wis, you are now 8 Wis, which adds a +255 instead of -1 to your DC. This doesn't really account for the damage bug, but it is what I was told awhile back and made the most sense while back.  |
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Post by psv38 on Jan 8, 2021 15:16:38 GMT
I love the bug, used to keep me on my toes and I have died from it several times, haha!
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Post by dizgrace on Jan 8, 2021 15:29:32 GMT
I love the bug, used to keep me on my toes and I have died from it several times, haha! I kind of agree. Spice is a bit nice. Not sure how I'd vote if we could, say, just push a button and get rid of it. That being said, trying to figure out how it works is pretty amusing, cause it doesn't make a lot of sense. |
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Post by dizgrace on Jan 8, 2021 15:35:53 GMT
From what I remember, and I probably shouldn't be saying this, but the root problem of the bug is to get your stats in the negative adding mod, like 8, which is -1 to mods, which somehow starts back over at 255 and goes down from there. So my thinking is that the spell fires, all is good, say your a Cleric or the creature is a Cleric and you have to have at least say 19 Wisdom to cast a level 9 spell, say Storm of Vengeance, but when it comes to the saving throw part of the spell or you know the spell last for so many rounds, you somehow get your Wisdom to drop to 8. So now instead of saying adding +4 for having 19 Wis, you are now 8 Wis, which adds a +255 instead of -1 to your DC. This doesn't really account for the damage bug, but it is what I was told awhile back and made the most sense while back. :) This certainly makes sense. A bit, at least. I've taken it into consideration from ye olde days when something similar would be abused. What totally screws with my understanding is that I've had many instances in which someone spawns, buffed or unbuffed, casts a single spell (sov), and gets spicy on the first hit. That is to say, no one has interracted with the caster, myself included, and it still kicks in. and again, the dmg, given that it's based on caster level, suggests that we're dealing with someone perceived as lvl 120 (or whatever the cap is atm). |
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Post by kalmeb on Jan 8, 2021 16:54:40 GMT
From what I remember, and I probably shouldn't be saying this, but the root problem of the bug is to get your stats in the negative adding mod, like 8, which is -1 to mods, which somehow starts back over at 255 and goes down from there. So my thinking is that the spell fires, all is good, say your a Cleric or the creature is a Cleric and you have to have at least say 19 Wisdom to cast a level 9 spell, say Storm of Vengeance, but when it comes to the saving throw part of the spell or you know the spell last for so many rounds, you somehow get your Wisdom to drop to 8. So now instead of saying adding +4 for having 19 Wis, you are now 8 Wis, which adds a +255 instead of -1 to your DC. This doesn't really account for the damage bug, but it is what I was told awhile back and made the most sense while back. This is it. Another thing I've noticed is that it seems like the bug only triggers if the caster has some kind of buff from items or spells that increases their caster stat. As long as the caster has an unmodified caster stat the bug doesn't seem to trigger. |
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Post by dizgrace on Jan 8, 2021 17:03:36 GMT
This is kinda what I've been suspecting too. But when sten told me that it happens with forgies, too, I got confused. Cause I never had a single sov bug in sanctum. But then, maybe the prophets don't spawn buffed, but the servitor and servant can - which would explain why I didn't notice, since I was fire immune during the process, and servants and servitors don't cast sovs.
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Post by kalmeb on Jan 8, 2021 17:10:44 GMT
This is kinda what I've been suspecting too. But when sten told me that it happens with forgies, too, I got confused. Cause I never had a single sov bug in sanctum. But then, maybe the prophets don't spawn buffed, but the servitor and servant can - which would explain why I didn't notice, since I was fire immune during the process, and servants and servitors don't cast sovs. The servant and servitor both trigger the bug with their cloud of fire. It used to be the most common place for the bug to happen. It killed so many players that the devs made persistent spells disappear when the body of the caster did. |
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Post by dizgrace on Jan 8, 2021 17:18:07 GMT
Ah. Cool. Very good to know.
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Post by Rijnius on Jan 11, 2021 6:09:44 GMT
Would not be a simple solution then to remove any temporary WIS/CHA/INT buffs from casters and add them to their innate stats instead? This way that stat cannot be changed on mob death?
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Post by chreelister on Jan 11, 2021 14:59:32 GMT
I don't know of any temporary Wis, Cha, or Int buffs tho on casters. I didn't write the AI or make all the bad guys up either. Some could be easily wearing armor or a staff that gives bonuses. Give me the name of a certain caster who causes the issue and I will check them out. I am not going to check them all out, right now. I was thinking more of the problem is with a caster casting something lasting longer than him. Like a Cleric casting SOV and then dying before the spell ends. So then it goes to get the info from the caster to determine DC and damage and the caster no longer exists, so it defaults to 8 in stats or negative mod numbers and then those turn into the max numbers, like 250 or 255. But this don't always happen and I know for a fact that I have killed off creatures before their spell ended and not gotten the crazy numbers of insta death. |
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Post by henrikjakobsen on Jan 14, 2021 11:07:46 GMT
It is not just for SOV that there is problems - I just got 113 damage from a melfs acid arrow cast by an Iron Brotherhood cleric. That is not normal I am pretty sure :-)
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Post by chreelister on Jan 14, 2021 14:30:34 GMT
It is not just for SOV that there is problems - I just got 113 damage from a melfs acid arrow cast by an Iron Brotherhood cleric. That is not normal I am pretty sure :-) Are you sure it was a Cleric and not the mage, but anyways, was he dead or alive when the 113 damage hit? Since this is one of those damage per rounds type of spell. |
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Post by dizgrace on Jan 15, 2021 5:32:19 GMT
The only conclusive thing I can say is that neither fireborn prophets (cleric or druid) triggered SoV glitch over ish 1,8m exp, in sanctum. Seeing as how the servitors/servants seem to via Incendiary Cloud, comparing them might lead to something. Or, comparing prophets to drale casters. Though I didn't (and don't) intend to send you on some sort of fact-finding mission, chree, just figured I'd mention it just cause I thought it was a bit interesting. - That being said, I recently did some experimenting without con mods from items and it dawned on me that, for quite a few builds, end-game SoV glitch wouldn't just be spicy, it'd be a guaranteed insta-death. That might be a bit frustrating, I suppose.
I know practically nothing about how the epic spell damage script works though, so the stat boost hypothesis confuses me a bit. I thought it was caster level based - ie. like ice storms where it'd make no difference if you had 15 or 255 in the relevant stat. I got to thinking it might possibly happen because the script used the group spawn as basis for the caster level, instead of the caster alone, but if it went wonky with a IB spawn, that seems unlikely.
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