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Post by kid on Nov 5, 2022 22:47:42 GMT
I was having a discussion recently and the topic of trappers came up, the player I was talking to made (what I think) is a very valid point that trappers have become far less viable an option now with the advent of random items since trapper skills don't seem to be included in the list of possible skills. I'm not advocating for trapper skills to be added to randoms, (I don't think I want to earn that much enmity ) but would it be possible/practical/balanced to add a large trapper skill to one or two shop bought items? Basically allowing you to go down the trapper route and only devote one or two of your equipment slots to it?
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Post by chreelister on Nov 5, 2022 23:17:10 GMT
The problem is I didn't make nor do I understand the Trapper skills.
So what is Over The Top, what is a slap in the face? What skills are even needed, etc. I don't know. I would hate to add something and then trappers rule 3T because its so easy now. Also making new items eats up resources and we are dangerously low at the moment.
I could take the old ones that exist now and up them say like 20-50% or something like that pretty easy. If I had a list of items to upgrade.
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Post by kid on Nov 6, 2022 0:22:56 GMT
The problem is I didn't make nor do I understand the Trapper skills. So what is Over The Top, what is a slap in the face? What skills are even needed, etc. I don't know. I would hate to add something and then trappers rule 3T because its so easy now. Also making new items eats up resources and we are dangerously low at the moment. I could take the old ones that exist now and up them say like 20-50% or something like that pretty easy. If I had a list of items to upgrade. Iirc for a dedicated trapper you basically need max set trap from gear. Off the top of my head (I'm no expert mind) you need something like 2x(?) Set Trap x Trapper lvl with 50 or 60 trapper lvl being the max (or something like that). You also can't just go pure rogue but need to mix in a substantial amount of SD to get the full benefits, rogue is x1 trapper lvl and SD is x2 with some other class like ranger also being x1 and others being x0.5.
And yeah I think just increasing the skills on one or two dedicated lvl 40 trapper items and perhaps 1 or 2 lvl 20 dedicated trapper items would be enough. Honestly I can't see traps ever dominating the server, you can max the skills and lvl for it now, you just have terrible gear while doing so. Edit: It seems that the limit is max skill (126) + roll, so 146 + whatever the base is/3. So you are looking at around 49 - maybe 55(?) max trapper lvls.
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Post by kid on Nov 6, 2022 0:32:00 GMT
Also I'll add if anyone on the forums recalls how trappers work better then me, please chip in. I've tried them a bit in the past but never got all that far with them so someone with more knowledge would be very helpful.
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Post by jarrod on Nov 6, 2022 0:32:11 GMT
Shadowdancer is the main class for trapper levels. Is there soul/fire diamond hand armour in for trappers? I dont recall seeing it in the list of builds you can hand in for.
Maybe you get set trap for plain shadow dancer armour on soul diamond hand in?
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Post by kid on Nov 6, 2022 1:13:58 GMT
Shadowdancer is the main class for trapper levels. Is there soul/fire diamond hand armour in for trappers? I dont recall seeing it in the list of builds you can hand in for. Maybe you get set trap for plain shadow dancer armour on soul diamond hand in? I dont recall ever seeing trapper skills on SD robes.
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Post by chreelister on Nov 6, 2022 4:55:38 GMT
Shadowdancer is the main class for trapper levels. Is there soul/fire diamond hand armour in for trappers? I dont recall seeing it in the list of builds you can hand in for. Maybe you get set trap for plain shadow dancer armour on soul diamond hand in? I never made any, but could.
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Post by kid on Nov 6, 2022 9:31:33 GMT
From what I understand, there is an Elite Trapper Hood item with 24 Set Trap and I know there is a Trappers Hood item with 10 Set Trap. I'd suggest focusing on buffing those, one for early/mid lvls and one for later/endgame and basically make those the dedicated Set Trap slot. Maybe buff Gloves of the Rogue too with proper amounts of set trap if you feel that it's too much for one slot, I think that's worth keeping in mind bracers are kind of an important slot though as it's the best location to get Armour AC.
Edit: And anyone that might want to do an unarmed monk now that I think about it.
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Post by apecraze on Nov 6, 2022 10:17:37 GMT
The dedicated trapper items are in the shop at Caen (the guy that needs unseen PW and only lets you talk to him 1 in 5 attempts...) Here's my copy of what trappers do and my list of trap effects in the picture DC: Trapper DC is defined by 2 elements: Max DC and Actual DC. Max DC is determined by trapper lvls+15. SD lvl = 2 trapper lvls. Rogue/ranger/assassin = 1 trapper lvl. All the rest = .5 trapper lvl. This is rounded down: 9 fighter lvls would be 4 trapper lvls. Actual DC is determined by (set trap skill+1d20 roll)/3 +15. So for example a character with 80 set trap skill and a max roll would have actual DC of: 100/3 = 33. +15 = 48. The highest actual DC the game engine allows for is 64 because skill points are capped at 127. That however doesn't count the roll, so highest set trap roll is 147. 147/3 = 49. 49+15 = 64. Recovery: Your trap would be automatically recovered as long as you have 1 point in disable trap. When recovering your own trap, you recover the basic NWN version of that trap and not 3t version. In order to return the trap to the 3t version you need to activate it's blueprint on the trap (this does not cost additional money). Crafting: Crafting traps is exactly similar to crafting ammo. Each trap has a crafting DC according to it's level and if your crafting roll doesn't meet the DC you would fail in crafting it. Everything above said DC would just serve to lower costs. Spotting traps The check for spotting a trap is this: Setter's set trap skill (not including roll)+trap detect level (I do not know what numbers devs gave each trap and IF they gave 'em) vs Search skill + 1d20 roll. Search skill is performed once per round. Synergy: Set trap and disable trap are the only 2 skills that have synergy. This means that taking 5 points in one skill (real lvl up points, not just dex modifier), will give you 2 bonus points in the other. 5 disable = 2 set bonus. 5 set = 2 disable. Epic SD and skill mastery feat: Normally your set trap roll would be a regular 1d20 roll, but having 11 lvls or more in SD and the skill mastery rogue feat improve the roll. If you don't have either - 1d20= 10.5 in average. If you have one of the 2 - 4+2d8 = 13.5 in average. If you have both - 10+1d10 = 15.5 in average. *notice that when setting trap not in combat the log will not show your real set trap roll, but will always show 20. DMG: Each trap has the info written in game, but dmg is usually the same as trapper lvl. Meaning you have max dmg and actual dmg. Max dmg is 1d6 per trapper lvl. Actualy dmg is 1d6Xset trap/3. Blueprints: In order to craft a certain trap you need to have it's blueprints. Those are found throughout the mod at various merchants. For the first time you need to activate the blueprints twice in order to craft. After that just once.
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Post by kid on Nov 6, 2022 10:26:23 GMT
You should post that in the build thread too, I know I was struggling to find the full information for trappers.
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Post by apecraze on Nov 6, 2022 10:50:08 GMT
From my personal experience, what pushed me away from playing my trappers is the cumbersome killing as each trap disappears after first ignition, so basically relies on enemies, which are walking into it, pulling comrades in sufficient quantity in close proximity (for AoE traps) or the targeted enemy needs to enter it 1st (say you wanted a caster to step into a lvl drain trap, instead a melee triggers it). So kill rate / time unit is rather low imho and then you panic running around not to be hit at the same time you want to place more traps...
But might also be my laziness to really learn how to play it
If traps had a duration (say 5 seconds after 1st trigger) it would be more interesting...
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Post by jarrod on Nov 6, 2022 12:07:29 GMT
I read from omegaaxis the trap developer said this: threetownsboard.boards.net/thread/655/trapper-manifesto"First and foremost, traps will give credit for kills, both for XP and quest rewards. Currently traps are either instantaneous damage or non-damaging persistent effects. I may be implementing some damage over time variants, but that's for the future." Maybe someone can email him and ask him to complete his masterpiece the future has arrived.
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Post by kid on Nov 20, 2022 10:12:34 GMT
From my personal experience, what pushed me away from playing my trappers is the cumbersome killing as each trap disappears after first ignition, so basically relies on enemies, which are walking into it, pulling comrades in sufficient quantity in close proximity (for AoE traps) or the targeted enemy needs to enter it 1st (say you wanted a caster to step into a lvl drain trap, instead a melee triggers it). So kill rate / time unit is rather low imho and then you panic running around not to be hit at the same time you want to place more traps... But might also be my laziness to really learn how to play it If traps had a duration (say 5 seconds after 1st trigger) it would be more interesting... It wouldnt be so bad if you didn't have to regear between "trapping mode" and "combat mode", I've done a fighter rogue sd, you can get decent (including non sneak) dmg, reasonable saves and ac, the works. So you are left with asking, why bother investing so much gear/skills/stats in trapping when I can just kill things directly?
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Post by donojono on Dec 3, 2022 21:56:12 GMT
OK having made an played a trapper for a long time, the issue with the gear at the moment is very underpowered and you really need to get to + 50 set trap for the build to be viable, in a nut shell it you can get the set trap skill up with items such as the shop items, helm + 24 set trap, elite spinepad has + 6 , greater stoutheart snare kit (+5), finale rogue reward gloves have + 9 set trap.
The green leaf has + 10 set trap but its a t11 shield, then clear thought + 7 has set trap but again t11s, other T11s that are used alot on trapper builds but that have no set trap skill are The fast and the silent, boots of the dark dancer, True ring of survival, dark divinity, some gear is assassin based as assassins make good trappers, Boss 6, cape of the darkest night,
in general alot of these items are very outdated or not very good they were excellent at the time and targeted builds like a sneak or an assassin, but there is a struggle to reach the + 50 set trap if you do reach it you will heavily suffer and most likely be unable to max more then 2 stats, possibly dex and intel or dex and con, after that its a struggle with randoms, because they don't have set trap skill on them and alot of the heavily used t11s do not have set trap skill either.
adding set trap skill to true survival, dark dancer, the fast and the silent, the gambler, greater shadowsilk, etc would help alot and allow for more randoms to be used, also adding set trap to the robes and arbors for a trapper reward with fire or soul diamonds would help alot.
Ape explained it excellently that is how it works.
really to be viable you need + 12 con, dex, int, at least + 6 str, 6 wis, + 6 cha if COT, after that you need + 50 dis, + 50 spot, +50 hide, +50 OL, +50 set trap, + 50 mis then you need to think about high will so + 20 saves if not COT and improved evasion or you will set off your hurt alot when your own trap hits you and high elemental resist at least 30 all if you can , this is a build that is in it for the long haul but the first challenge is as already mentioned set trap skilll missing on randoms and what i have said not enough or none at all on some key loot and rewards
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Post by chreelister on Dec 3, 2022 22:27:53 GMT
We can add Set Trap to Randoms, but then it could be a bigger dilution issue, as most people wouldn't want it, I wouldn't think and this would keep you from getting a good mod.
We could also add Set Trap to the same skill set as say Craft Weapon, or some other one that is already on the list that is somewhat under powered, on Randoms, if it chooses the Craft Weapon then it would also add Set Trap.
We could up the existing ones, say 20 to 50% more on these, the helm + 24 set trap, elite spinepad has + 6 , greater stoutheart snare kit (+5), finale rogue reward gloves have + 9 set trap and all the rare drops also.
We could add it to these adding set trap skill to true survival, dark dancer, the fast and the silent, the gambler, greater shadowsilk.
I could also make some Trapper Robes trade ins.
After this update on the server that is coming up, I got something else I need to do, then I will look at either doing one to all of these or look at the Kamas.
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