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Post by perrit on Apr 13, 2016 16:12:06 GMT
with all the chat of making changes to different classes, how about an upgrade for bows?
they are a poor cousin now to xbows and its rare to see a non AA ranged use one, lets be honest a Long Bow looks much better than a XBow so any chance of boosting them a little to make them more desirable to use? improved crit range? larger multiplier?
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Post by Rijnius on Apr 14, 2016 19:57:44 GMT
I've posted a similar suggestion on old forums but it was considered as too powerful (19-20x3 for shortbows or even 20x4 crit range for longbows to make both bows unique), but I think due to the recent power creep it might make sense to reconsider a change of some sort now.
Longbow damage is really low, it actually has same average damage as slings* which can be wielded with one hand and used by halflings for extra +2 AB compared to medium sized longbow or +1 AB compared to small sized shortbow wielder.
A more "calm" approach could be boosting base damage only (2d6 / 2d8) but that doesn't make much sense in times of puissant widget since the impact is quite low. Another option of boosting bows to make them more attractive (not in terms of style but in terms of combat usefulness) could be improved crafted arrow stats.
*) I did calculations when the endgame bullets still had a +2 damage advantage over endgame arrows which compensated for 1d4 sling base damage over 1d8 longbow damage.
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Post by chreelister on Apr 16, 2016 21:17:46 GMT
The only problem with Bows are AAs, IMO. AAs are good enough, IMO, without tweaking bows anymore or at least you can't add much to them. I do agree bows should be better than crossbows, but for what I am understanding a level 29 AA gets +15 AB and +15 damage, that outduels or at least closes the gap to any of the other range weapons. I would be eager to listen to what ideas people have, though.
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Post by adamantite on Apr 16, 2016 21:51:58 GMT
I think it would be cool if you add in at say level 25 AA keen was added.
I think longbows are behind the heavy xbow with their threat range. Rapid shot doesn't quite make up for it. Changing the base threat range to 19-20 like heavy xbow seems like to much.
With just 1 more to the threat range for a mostly dedicated AA seems good to me. They still won't be at heavy xbow threat range but it would be a nice boost. I saw something like this done on another server.
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Post by apecraze on Apr 16, 2016 22:04:58 GMT
I'm in for bow changes but would rather make them unavailable to AAs
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Post by chreelister on Apr 17, 2016 13:00:14 GMT
I got to thinking of AAs compared to say Fighter xbow users and its closer than I first thought, like I was saying 29 levels of AA is +15 damage, but you can get that with less levels of Fighter, 9 from puissant and 6 from the weapon specializations. I still think bows should outdual xbows and thinking about the damage being the same, I am open to adding more damage, crit multiplier, crit range, etc. Also I noticed when I upped the stack size of axes, is that you can change the range of the weapons, so there's something that could be tweaked, IMO, bows should probably have more range than xbows.
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Post by Rijnius on Apr 17, 2016 13:21:56 GMT
I think it would be cool if you add in at say level 25 AA keen was added. I think longbows are behind the heavy xbow with their threat range. Rapid shot doesn't quite make up for it. Changing the base threat range to 19-20 like heavy xbow seems like to much. With just 1 more to the threat range for a mostly dedicated AA seems good to me. They still won't be at heavy xbow threat range but it would be a nice boost. I saw something like this done on another server. That change would make bows almost exclusive to AA-toons and it would hurt even more for non-AA toons to use them. But I can understand it would be cool that AA dedication should be rewarded, I liked the earlier idea of making different elemental ammunition for dedicated AA builds. |
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Post by heavymetal2000 on Apr 19, 2016 1:20:16 GMT
Adding extra bonuses to AA for taking extended levels beyond 20 AA would be a neat idea to give them an edge when you dedicate that many levels to it.
Upgrading bows isn't a bad idea either we just wouldn't want a see saw effect. Xbows were upgraded cause they were clearly I gerior to bows. Now we're upgrading bows cause xbows are better.
Need to find some common ground where there both useful and neither far out match the other.
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Post by chreelister on Apr 19, 2016 3:41:26 GMT
What is sad though, is you are not maximizing the potential of your build right now, unless you go Heavy Crossbow, unless you are an AA. Bluntly, you are stupid if you go bow, unless you are making an AA. That doesn't make sense to me. They are some balances like Xbows need an extra feat, but Xbows are more Feat easy on any character without Martial Wep. Prof. I agree it needs to balanced, I am not wanting where it is the other way around and now you are stupid for using an Xbow instead of a Bow. It would be nice if it is was 50/50, like if you had 3 range chars in a party, one was an axer, a Xbower and a Bow, because everyone is adding something to the party equally but differently. I do think it is fairly even between axers and Xbowers at the moment, as I have several chars of each and each one has their advantages and disadvantages.
I am not up too much on just adding stuff for just AAs, as I think they are fine and I personally think we just need to make bows better and that would in turn make AAs better. If somebody can come up with something so people would want to make a nonAA bow user, I am all ears, as that would be what I would rather see get done, but something not too OTT that now Xbowers are unplayable.
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Post by Rijnius on Apr 19, 2016 20:53:22 GMT
Well... current damage results are: Longbow (4.5 Weapon / 8 Mighty / 11 Fire / 3 Piercing / 9 Sonic = 35.5 Base) Heavy Xbow (5.5 Weapon / 8 Mighty / 11 Fire / 3 Piercing / 9 Sonic = 36.5 Base) - Longbow: 35.5*(17+2*3) = 816.5 damage per 20 arrows*
- Longbow+AA or EWS+P: 50.5*(17+2*3) = 1161.5 damage per 20 arrows*
- Longbow+AA+EWS+P: 65.5*(17+2*3) = 1506.5 damage per 20 arrows*
- Heavy Xbow: 36.5*(15+4*3) = 985.5 damage per 20 bolts*
- Heavy Xbow+EWS+P: 51.5*(15+4*3) = 1390.5 damage per 20 bolts*
Making longbows/shortbows having 20x4 crit range would yield the following results: - Longbow (20x4): 35.5*(17+2*4) = 887.5 damage per 20 arrows*
- Longbow (20x4)+AA or EWS+P: 50.5*(17+2*4) = 1262.5 damage per 20 arrows*
- Longbow (20x4)+AA+EWS+P: 65.5*(17+2*4) = 1637.5 damage per 20 arrows*
Would mean that increasing the crit multiplier to 20x4 would be almost halfway from average damage output bows do now to heavy xbows/throwing axes. However, lots of damage of high crits is wasted due to enemy HP and caster will not be interrupted as often but longbows can use rapid shot (need two feats though) for more arrows which still means more damage vs. crit immune enemies. I think that would be the way to go. A bit surprised that the impact is that low, but x4 crits would have the coolness factor (unique for ranged stuff) as well. Keep in mind that the average damage of a fully dedicated 20x4-AA would still be only 17% higher (if you neglect AB) than that of a heavy xbower with 6 fighter levels and focussed puissant widget, which is an improvement of only about 8-9% compared to regular 20x3 dedicated AA. *) 19 hits vs. non-crit immune enemies |
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Post by Rijnius on Apr 19, 2016 21:21:33 GMT
P.S.: Increasing base damage to 2d8 for longbow (and perhaps 2d6 for shortbow) would yield quite similar (but boring) results to 20x4 regarding average damage. - Longbow (1d8/20x3)+AA or EWS+P: 50.5*(17+2*3) = 1161.5 damage per 20 arrows*
- Longbow (1d8/20x4)+AA or EWS+P: 50.5*(17+2*4) = 1262.5 damage per 20 arrows*
- Longbow (2d8/20x3)+AA or EWS+P: 55.0*(17+2*3) = 1265.0 damage per 20 arrows*
- Heavy Xbow (1d10/19-20x3)+EWS+P: 51.5*(15+4*3) = 1390.5 damage per 20 bolts*
Over the top, but for the sake of completeness (still lower than xbow  ):
- Longbow (2d8/20x4)+AA or EWS+P: 55.0*(17+2*4) = 1375.0 damage per 20 arrows*
Apparently, the break even for regular longbows would be +10 damage (from either weapon or ammunition) to reach average heavy xbow damage levels.
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Post by heavymetal2000 on Apr 22, 2016 16:42:24 GMT
Had a quick look through. Do the calculations take into consideration bows can utilize an extra Apr?
The extra dmg per 20 shots might be lower but how do they compare if you consider the bow having the extra attack?
Xbows require a feat to catch up to bow Apr so it's safe to say the feat for an extra attack for bows could be considered?
Although I know not all players utilize rapid shot, and some builds don't benefit from it as much if they have lower ab.
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Post by Rijnius on Apr 24, 2016 6:33:58 GMT
Had a quick look through. Do the calculations take into consideration bows can utilize an extra Apr? Yeah, my point was to raise bow damage so that they do more damage than slings (halfway up to heavy xbows). Slings can use rapid shot, have more AB on halflings, can use offhand shield and most likely dont need any extra weapon prof. feats. |
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Post by adamantite on Apr 24, 2016 15:58:54 GMT
I like the thought of x4 multiplier on bows. Nice analysis Rijnius.
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Post by perrit on Apr 24, 2016 16:28:31 GMT
i agree with Addy, x4 would be nice, give them something a little extra and different from other ranged, but shouldnt make them OP
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