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Post by calidh on Jul 5, 2017 17:09:35 GMT
Been a long time since I played here but I understand that there are changes for paladins, what would be a solid build for a pally here?
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Post by jonlun on Jul 15, 2017 17:29:05 GMT
Pallas are a bit weak compared to fighter builds and barbs but here are a few I like:
Palla 18 fighter 20 rogue 2 great dmg output but needs to pump some charisma to be able to get descent saves
palla 10 cot 29 hs 1 7 wraths per day as hs stacks with palla and cot abilities. Great saves, high 60's in ab and ok dmg
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paladinclassbuffssuck
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Post by paladinclassbuffssuck on Jul 23, 2017 21:31:51 GMT
remember when they were going to buff paladins but paladins still sucked anyways. pepperidge farms remembers
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Post by Jonales on Jul 23, 2017 22:20:38 GMT
There is one thing to say about that. There's an item called the divine link in black merchants around towns, and it helps when buffing paladins or clerics etc. If you activate it it does divine might and shield if you do divine favor/wrath or it does divine shield when you do divine might. The 2nd setting is doing might when you do favor/wrath.
The thing about that is, when you link it the extended duration of the divine shield and might actually diminish to the duration of the favors/wraths. With my paladin builds I've been playing I've got into the habit of doing it all separately because that way the might and shield will last longer. I don't know if that was the intention behind everything but that's the way that's best for me I guess.
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Post by Jonales on Aug 6, 2017 16:33:44 GMT
I've considered it all and have a few things to post. I'll try to separate them clearly...
Be aware that before endgame areas, typical D&D warrior builds do fine with regards to armor class. It's at and after level 40 where you begin to have to consider what I'm saying.
First with any such build, you have to consider Armor Class. Be aware that if they tie in the attack roll vs armor class the defender gets hit.
You consider it because I'm taking a look at the traditional D&D type fighter / paladin with AC builds being a tank in front of the party. I consider it a pretty typical D&D scenario.
However with regards to three towns there is something to consider...the attack values in endgame areas. I would only consider AC builds besides elementals or other such non typical AC builds for trighton or other endgame areas. The only endgame areas for these typical AC builds in my mind are forgies and sendauntra.
Now for the information...
Usual total Armor class -
10 base + 9 (armor + dex) + 7 enhancement + 12 natural and deflection +9 dodge (haste and +5 boots) + 8 tumble
55
+8 from a +5 shield
63
+2 armor skin
65
This is the important number to remember when considering melee/armored/AC builds (non shifter/elemental). You can only certifiably get 65 AC. Maybe 64 with only +4 dodge boots.
This is an important thing to understand because the lowest endgame farming experience could probably be considered the new caen cultists, which have an attack of 55 and improved knockdown. You would want an AC (and discipline) of at least 75 to avoid all hits, and this is only for the lowest of the endgame experience gain. Many wouldn’t even consider it endgame farming, and would honestly say that you need 80 ac.
But the thing is as you’ve seen, you can’t get it without any ac bonuses. That’s the thing you have to consider. How many bonuses above 65 can you achieve?
It’s simple to note that a wisdom bonus of +8 and a dex bonus of +9 can effectively replace armor and shield for the monk. A total dex bonus of say 46 for modifier 18 will be a net +9, + the inherent ac bonus from being a monk.
A dex bonus can replace armor with its base of 9 and anything above 9 is considered excess.
Also good to note that this is assuming the +7 armor, +6 ammy and rings (or natural and deflection), and +5 dodge boots with haste...and 12 dex for full ac bonus.
So for the paladins you have to look at that if you want to even survive, as you have to for all melees most likely.
Paladin divine shield alone, at 14 charisma without being raised, can give you a dodge bonus of +8.
This would bring ac up to 73, and dodge bonus up to 17. Bard song can provide +3 more for 76 ac.
This still isn’t enough except for the lowest endgame experience. What to do?
The only thing that I’ve accepted with this question is getting expertise mode on such builds. This raises the max from 76 to 81, and just lowers attack by 5. Because of this I started to think that raising attack was effectively raising AC capability.
So if I could get more attack, then I could get more AC and that would be at least capable of farming certain areas alone.
There are builds that do this, not only the fighter paladin rogue (with an effective puissant widget). There is also a paladin 27 sorc 3 rdd 10, a paladin 32 pdk 5 rogue 3, and a paladin weapon master. A paladin ranger sd can be a shadowdancer as well but trades damage potential.
Because of their AC boosts and attack boost giving them expertise mode, all of these builds can farm at level 40 for low experience and can probably contribute something at least in a sendauntra run.
However…what is the best?
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Post by Jonales on Aug 6, 2017 16:35:40 GMT
As I levelled up the paladin fighter rogue build I noticed something on new caen while farming. This could affect one’s evaluation of such builds.
If the fighter rogue paladin has buffs on, then he’s fine. If he doesn’t…then he can be stunned, paralyzed, dazed, and other such concerns. Buffs are removed plenty in endgame zones with dispels. As a tank/warrior type, this should concern paladins.
Furthermore, the reflex saves are actually kind of low endgame even considering the possible +8 boost from being a paladin with full charisma. This means many spells can significantly damage a paladin or any such build. Fire storms, meteor strikes, and bombardments are common place in sendauntra/forgies, which is the only endgame zone worth considering.
Jonlun said that you had to pump charisma with this fighter paladin for the saves, but I would like to point out that doing so effectively reduces it’s attack capability (by way of not advancing strength instead), making it less effective each time in doing damage.
If you want to do that for saves, you have to consider getting spellcraft and saving throw boosts from equipment. This adds an extra equipment concern for the fighter paladin rogue or other builds like it.
I would say that the best is the Champion of Torm build. This is honestly the only one I would recommend for being a strength warrior without any immunites or pm levels besides a monk build or a barbarian build. Maybe I forgot one but I think you get the point that I wouldn’t recommend going 35 fighter increasing strength.
This is because with any strength ranger, or fighter, you would still have the same concerns but only worse. Maybe a fighter/monk build with regards to reflex can make it.
I would venture to say that the Champion build is more likely to survive when dispels happen because of it’s capability to save and it’s capability to heal more health for itself. Without any immunities or altering builds to increase in these regards, I would venture to say that healing and saving are one of the best options.
Furthermore, against these commonplace reflex spells, evasion would be great for a champion of torm since it’s reflex will be so high.
Altering Jonlun’s build to - paladin 10 / champion of torm 28 / rogue 2 - would only decrease divine wrath amount by 1 and decrease its enhancements (which are probably already capped anyway). Furthermore, it also gives you umd which gives you sanctuary and other benefits.
But as I said, I consider evasion the real prize because the only thing you would want to do in my mind is to try to make a build like this succeed in sendauntra/forgies. Evasion helps greatly in both areas.
So for beginners I would only recommend a paladin 10 champion of torm 28 and rogue 2.
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Post by Jonales on Aug 6, 2017 16:37:41 GMT
There’s also other things to consider for such a build though.
You want paladin feats and can only get 10 levels of paladin at the start.
I consider that you want these feats as a paladin – power attack, divine shield, divine might, and extra turning.
Also consider that you have to go 10 paladin pre epic because champion is a prestige class which can only go up to 10 pre epic.
Level 1 – power attack divine shield
3 – divine might
6 extra turning
All well and good right? Actually no its not because you have to wait for turn undead to get the feats anyway. Also…as a melee build with a shield you actually want something else for increasing damage through critical hit range. Exotic proficiency and to use scimitars or rapiers.
Let’s continue…
9 – exotic proficiency
12 (paladin) – weapon focus scimitar
But oops you just went 12 paladin instead of 10.
So to avoid this you have to take exotic and weapon focus before level 7, then advance champion of torm while on level 9 and 12 selecting paladin so you can take the paladin feats.
1 – exotic, weapon focus scimitar
3- power attack
6 – divine shield
7,8 champion of torm
9 paladin (7 paladin) – divine might
10, 11 champion
12 paladin (8 paladin) extra turning.
Now that works out fine.
I also thought about what feats to get considering expertise mode, so heres my list.
Expertise, Improved critical, toughness ( general feats)
Blind fight
Now theres also many champion fighting feats pre epic you can get. You can get cleave & great cleave, called shot, knockdowns, or improved expertise. Among the combat feats I wouldn’t really consider any besides these.
Why not consider general epic feats?
Champion of torm bonus feats – armor skin, epic weapon focus, epic prowess. Anything else is your choice, such as epic toughness as a cot bonus feat.
Epic general feats – epic skill focus discipline, 6 great strengths.
That all works out fine and dandy.
Now let’s consider widgets for the Champion.
Drone widget
Divinity widget
Parry widget (if you increase your parry skill to max and have at least a +30 item)
Peaceful Rest widget.
You can also consider defense, preparedness, and widget of life.
With the champion of torm feats and by sacrificing your last champion of torm bonus feat and another feat, you can get improved crits, weapon foci, and overwhelming crits to be able to gain a +1 attack / +5 damage with puissant widget, but that does require sacrificing 1 feat for either 1 attack (which you gain back) or 10 discipline, as well as the extra widget such as peaceful rest. It does give you better critical hit damage and a positive damage boost. But you will also have to remember to buff your weapon before you use the puissant widget as well.
That's my recommended paladin build. The paladin 10, champion of torm 28 rogue 2. Remember to advance feats before level 10 like I said to avoid the problems.
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Post by Jonales on Aug 6, 2017 16:51:54 GMT
Oh, and toward this idea...
If you want to help paladin builds at all consider making the +4 crusaders armor at the smith that noone buys +7 please heh. Or consider making a strength / cha armor that is +7 - because there practically is none.
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Post by jonlun on Aug 26, 2017 1:25:53 GMT
Oh I forgot fi palla cot. Great build I'm remaking mine now  |
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Post by bdtgazo on Nov 10, 2017 15:36:57 GMT
I still lean towards the pally/rdd/sorc.
Assuming you can hit the 20 cap, this build gives the highest ab. If you want an ac pally, its fighter/pally/rogue or monk. A FPM can get AC to mid eighties. But the PRS will hit for much more. AC will be about 74ish, 79 with expertise, with a 73/68ish ab. And more pally levels.
One of the major issues with the pally, still, is that the puissant + warrior widgets outshine the major values the pally has to offer. More dmg, more ac.
I *still* say Holy Sword should offer a bonus attack or two, similar to Barbarian Rage, like +1 attack for every 15 levels of pally.
Another build I'd like to try is a Pally/PDK/Rogue. It is effectively a Pally/RDD/Sorc, but oriented more towards pvp. Tumble makes up for the 4 ac from RDD, Ow makes up for the 8 str - but only vs. one racial type. UMD and evasion vs. fire immune and spellcraft.
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Post by radiomano on Nov 13, 2017 4:04:36 GMT
One of the major issues with the pally, still, is that the puissant + warrior widgets outshine the major values the pally has to offer. More dmg, more ac. Completely agree. I would add there's no point in going for many paladin levels (well, 15 for +5 df is good and enough) and fighter levels are really really nice to have. So P/F/M looks nice on paper. |
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Post by gin on Nov 13, 2017 11:45:41 GMT
One of the major issues with the pally, still, is that the puissant + warrior widgets outshine the major values the pally has to offer. More dmg, more ac. Completely agree. I would add there's no point in going for many paladin levels (well, 15 for +5 df is good and enough) and fighter levels are really really nice to have. So P/F/M looks nice on paper. The reason to go heavy on the pal lvls is getting big lay on hand which is the best heal available on 3t as it is an instant action and can have insane reach. In addition to that you get undispellable buff bonus (recent update) and better HS. |
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Post by bdtgazo on Nov 13, 2017 18:24:01 GMT
Completely agree. I would add there's no point in going for many paladin levels (well, 15 for +5 df is good and enough) and fighter levels are really really nice to have. So P/F/M looks nice on paper. The reason to go heavy on the pal lvls is getting big lay on hand which is the best heal available on 3t as it is an instant action and can have insane reach. In addition to that you get undispellable buff bonus (recent update) and better HS. Of course, that doesn't mean that LoH or Aura make up for the wide attribute spread. The puissant/warrior/belt combo is just so darn powerful. The Aura buff is still within the 12 cap. It just means you can treat Aura as a piece of gear. Which is nice. But its not increasing your overall chr bonus. If you want a higher bonus (which translates to dmg/ac, or one of the two), you're probably going to lose some ab. But the fighter widget system allows for a pretty good ac bonus without any need to lower ab. So a fighter combo could more easily hit 75/85 (using these numbers as an approximate for decent values of ab/ac of various builds). The pally will have LoH. I still think Pally's need a Holy Sword buff. +1 attack for 20 levels of paladin. Or add DR to divine shield based on pally levels. One or the other. |
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Post by gin on Nov 14, 2017 21:05:36 GMT
The reason to go heavy on the pal lvls is getting big lay on hand which is the best heal available on 3t as it is an instant action and can have insane reach. In addition to that you get undispellable buff bonus (recent update) and better HS. Of course, that doesn't mean that LoH or Aura make up for the wide attribute spread. The puissant/warrior/belt combo is just so darn powerful. The Aura buff is still within the 12 cap. It just means you can treat Aura as a piece of gear. Which is nice. But its not increasing your overall chr bonus. If you want a higher bonus (which translates to dmg/ac, or one of the two), you're probably going to lose some ab. But the fighter widget system allows for a pretty good ac bonus without any need to lower ab. So a fighter combo could more easily hit 75/85 (using these numbers as an approximate for decent values of ab/ac of various builds). The pally will have LoH. I still think Pally's need a Holy Sword buff. +1 attack for 20 levels of paladin. Or add DR to divine shield based on pally levels. One or the other. It does mean exactly that, the fact that aura counts towards the+12 ability cap, a piece of gear if you will, is exactly what you want on a build that requires a wide spread of abilities. For me its quite simple, if you want bigger LoH (kills all undead mobs in trighton in one touch) or dispell you invest more into pally. If you want more ab/dmg you go for pally with 10 ftr lvls. 28 pally 10 ftr 2 rogue prolly combines the best of both worlds and has been proven to do very well. Paladin builds are great as they are, there is a number of great builds ranged and melee. The only thing they could rly use is an adjustment regarding the duration of the favor/might/shield combo, which seems like something that should have been there from the start. Im still puzzled how certain stuff is still with default duration even though 3T is not free rest. Aside from that, paladins have rly crappy gear options, the t11 armor sucks, the t11 shield sucks, the t11 belt is total disaser (fear immunity on paladin only item??). Paladin gear in t10 and the tiers below is basically a sad exhibition of useless gloves (divine warrior comes to mind) and outdated rings. |
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Post by bdtgazo on Nov 15, 2017 15:38:31 GMT
Of course, that doesn't mean that LoH or Aura make up for the wide attribute spread. The puissant/warrior/belt combo is just so darn powerful. The Aura buff is still within the 12 cap. It just means you can treat Aura as a piece of gear. Which is nice. But its not increasing your overall chr bonus. If you want a higher bonus (which translates to dmg/ac, or one of the two), you're probably going to lose some ab. But the fighter widget system allows for a pretty good ac bonus without any need to lower ab. So a fighter combo could more easily hit 75/85 (using these numbers as an approximate for decent values of ab/ac of various builds). The pally will have LoH. I still think Pally's need a Holy Sword buff. +1 attack for 20 levels of paladin. Or add DR to divine shield based on pally levels. One or the other. It does mean exactly that, the fact that aura counts towards the+12 ability cap, a piece of gear if you will, is exactly what you want on a build that requires a wide spread of abilities. For me its quite simple, if you want bigger LoH (kills all undead mobs in trighton in one touch) or dispell you invest more into pally. If you want more ab/dmg you go for pally with 10 ftr lvls. 28 pally 10 ftr 2 rogue prolly combines the best of both worlds and has been proven to do very well. Paladin builds are great as they are, there is a number of great builds ranged and melee. The only thing they could rly use is an adjustment regarding the duration of the favor/might/shield combo, which seems like something that should have been there from the start. Im still puzzled how certain stuff is still with default duration even though 3T is not free rest. Aside from that, paladins have rly crappy gear options, the t11 armor sucks, the t11 shield sucks, the t11 belt is total disaser (fear immunity on paladin only item??). Paladin gear in t10 and the tiers below is basically a sad exhibition of useless gloves (divine warrior comes to mind) and outdated rings.
My main point, though, was that while its nice to be able to have such an aura, the wide spread effectively caps your potential ab/ac, due to all of the hardcoded caps. The aura buff makes it much easier to maximize a build, but nonetheless, the build is limited in ab/ac. Not by much, mind you, maybe by 2-4 ab, and you easily can get a high ac pally if you push it. But in that tiny margin of pvp 'to hit', where ac's start climbing towards 90, the difference between 71ab and 75 is pretty big. But I guess that's the choice you make when you decide to make a pally.
I believe divine favor cannot be extended. I haven't looked at it in awhile. I suppose using the divine link could 'pass' the divine favor bonuses into divine power, but then you end up with quite a few more divine favors. Hmmm. You'd also want to do a Blackguard check (or at least make sure the caster can actually cast divine favor). Maybe cleric/pally/blackguard stack for this? Possibly Torm as well? If you did pass it into divine power, there are quite a few things you could do with it.
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