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Post by chreelister on Apr 17, 2020 23:12:45 GMT
So many good ideas! This seems like a sure win! I think it'd be truly wonderful to see gold become a little bit more significant. Also, end-game, death penalty wise, ~45k to port back to IoS is not much of a disincentive considering the intended perma-death threat, theoretically looming. (perhaps something like enchancting finite charge rods and custom potions could become available through NPCs). On a slightly more meta level, it seems to me that an advantage with 3t is that it's possible to run around on your own - ie. it's possible to have fun even though there aren't many other players online, in your level range. Though it's always a laugh when you get together a big party to do some difficult quest or fight a tough boss, it might not be too popular if it becomes difficult to do things on your own (seeing as how the game itself probably won't become screamingly more popular, despite the re-release). (As a side note, I've spent some time wondering why Epic Dodge is disabled. Seems to me that the generally buggy AC system in NWN makes that feat pretty vital in order to make viable dex characters that aren't also immune to crit. Also, I guess dragon shape might, if time allows, get something of a makeover?) Epic Dodge - supposedly has way for a character to never ever get hit. Or at least that was the story I heard when Hotu came out and that is the reason they outlawed it. I don't know the details.
Dragon Shape - I agree it does need a makeover, it has been put on the list of things to improve and it never does get much votes for some reason.
Meta level - I totally agree you need something to do Solo. You shouldn't be say soloing the hardest area in the server, but you should have something to do productive. My aim is take out speed bumps like the portal quest, western gate, mano entrance, etc. To where it limits some characters, to where they can't do anything because they are too high of level to say get XP, but still can't complete the quest required soloing to go to the next set of areas.
Gold - I am all for making gold more valuable. I have other ideas, but for now, I could see gold being worth something on a brand new server with no preexisting characters.
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Post by taroc on Apr 18, 2020 5:24:39 GMT
Epic Dodge - supposedly has way for a character to never ever get hit. Or at least that was the story I heard when Hotu came out and that is the reason they outlawed it. I don't know the details.
Epic Dodge - how it's supposed to work - you dodge any attack from your opponent's first attack in a round that would have otherwise hit you. How it actually worked - you dodged the first attack that lands in a round, taking no damage (not necessarily the first attack, just the first hit). How it could be exploited: Played on a PvP duelling server, made a high AC, low AB ED monk. Turned on flurry of blows and Empty Body. Left the room, made a coffee, came back 20 minutes later to find I'd won, taking little to no damage - rolled more natural 20's than whoever I was fighting, and when they actually got a 20, ED negated the damage. If you wanted to be a bit more 'hands on', there are things you can do to provoke natural 20's making use of NWN's loaded dice. Epic Dodge was fixed a while ago in vanilla NWN, and is fixed in NWN-EE. Concerns were that HIPS combined with ED would be overpowered, especially in PvP, however doesn't really give that much advantage in both PvP or PVM, I've played on other servers with a character that has ED and HIPS, not much difference to how it stands now: HIPS > no TS; has TS > HIPS. I think adding it to 3T would make high AC builds have some chance of survival in areas traditionally only explored by high DR crit immunes. Epic Dodge also requires significant investment to gain it. In terms of PvP, shifters can't get it, so would give dex based characters a better chance vs things like air elementals.
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Post by Rijnius on Apr 18, 2020 11:33:30 GMT
Regarding puissant widget, I would suggest to remove its original purpose (adding something for weapons you have no focus in) and replace it with an feat-heavy investment to plainly add damage/AB for every double weapon feat, regardless of the weapon the toon has equipped. This way it cannot be exploited by shifters anymore and the longbow/shortbow issue is solved as well.
I would also remove the ability for shifters to transfer rage bonus (positive or divine) before shift which is converted to a static weapon property which can then be additionally imbued with the other element after the original rage wore off. As a proposal, every first rage after rest could set an invisible flag determining the type of the damage that is used and further rage uses would be fixed to that particular damage type for the remaining rages until rest.
Also, I like the epic dodge proposal. Currently I am only playing crit immune or HIPS toons because AC is not a solid line of defense (for me). This might open up some interesting new build concepts.
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Post by apecraze on Apr 18, 2020 12:23:59 GMT
Rij doing AC toons and hell will freeze
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EE Update
Apr 18, 2020 14:57:42 GMT
via mobile
Post by donojono on Apr 18, 2020 14:57:42 GMT
Ac, epic dodge would help melee sneaks or improving initiate checks if possible if it was not fixed and also doing something with defensive roll and crippling strike. Ts is not that bad except against monsters like pit lord or gthing but the main issue of gthing is the speed otherwise a sneak trapper is fine due to high saves and the fact that u can drop a trap in combat with max dc if u have the feat skill mastery.
Asassins are very weak their dc is low saves low and feat starved . Axtually self conceal could be given for free based on assassin level or u might consider adding their spell book back as it was removed for nwn but it’s available in dnd 3.0
On epic dodge don’t believe the hype it’s for exploits with cleric monk sd with only 7 monk levels. Kamas dual wield and 32 cleric levels
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Post by taroc on Apr 18, 2020 16:01:42 GMT
On epic dodge don’t believe the hype it’s for exploits with cleric monk sd with only 7 monk levels. Kamas dual wield and 32 cleric levels Not sure what you mean by this but 7 monk/ 1 sd/ 32 cleric can't get epic dodge. As for exploit - they get 10 APR? Much like pure barbs? Back when level limit was 25 in v6 it was considered overpowered, I doubt the build would do well these days.
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Post by chreelister on Apr 18, 2020 16:12:30 GMT
Epic Dodge - how it's supposed to work - you dodge any attack from your opponent's first attack in a round that would have otherwise hit you. How it actually worked - you dodged the first attack that lands in a round, taking no damage (not necessarily the first attack, just the first hit). How it could be exploited: Played on a PvP duelling server, made a high AC, low AB ED monk. Turned on flurry of blows and Empty Body. Left the room, made a coffee, came back 20 minutes later to find I'd won, taking little to no damage - rolled more natural 20's than whoever I was fighting, and when they actually got a 20, ED negated the damage. If you wanted to be a bit more 'hands on', there are things you can do to provoke natural 20's making use of NWN's loaded dice. Epic Dodge was fixed a while ago in vanilla NWN, and is fixed in NWN-EE. Concerns were that HIPS combined with ED would be overpowered, especially in PvP, however doesn't really give that much advantage in both PvP or PVM, I've played on other servers with a character that has ED and HIPS, not much difference to how it stands now: HIPS > no TS; has TS > HIPS. I think adding it to 3T would make high AC builds have some chance of survival in areas traditionally only explored by high DR crit immunes. Epic Dodge also requires significant investment to gain it. In terms of PvP, shifters can't get it, so would give dex based characters a better chance vs things like air elementals. I thought Shifters could get it. I thought I made a build on paper, that took it, I think it was using Risen shape for open Dex. But it looked like it wouldn't be that good or is that what you meant? I get what you are saying about HIPS versus TS. HIPS is better, even a lot better with ED unless the creature has TS, then its worse, even with ED. I think the Devs back in the day thought, HIPS + ED = never ever getting hit, but with all the TS floating around it probably won't matter.
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Post by chreelister on Apr 18, 2020 16:25:51 GMT
Regarding puissant widget, I would suggest to remove its original purpose (adding something for weapons you have no focus in) and replace it with an feat-heavy investment to plainly add damage/AB for every double weapon feat, regardless of the weapon the toon has equipped. This way it cannot be exploited by shifters anymore and the longbow/shortbow issue is solved as well.
I would also remove the ability for shifters to transfer rage bonus (positive or divine) before shift which is converted to a static weapon property which can then be additionally imbued with the other element after the original rage wore off. As a proposal, every first rage after rest could set an invisible flag determining the type of the damage that is used and further rage uses would be fixed to that particular damage type for the remaining rages until rest.
Also, I like the epic dodge proposal. Currently I am only playing crit immune or HIPS toons because AC is not a solid line of defense (for me). This might open up some interesting new build concepts. I have already mentioned, that puissant unfocused and focused would be the same. So if you get say +7 damage in a focused weapon, that is what you will get using an unfocused weapon. I thought too, that it would end Shifters getting the best of both worlds and the complicated formulas of trying to decide to go unfocused or focused and what that number should be, as I get the questions still and sometimes I think I should be getting more.
On Barbarians, I think I need more information. I see where you could Rage and then Shift, and then that is perma added to the weapon and you never lose the bonus. Anything else I am missing? How crazy can this get? If you Rage, then Shift and say you get +12 positive damage, then Rage again, it shouldn't go up any. In coding, I would have to determine whether or not it is puissant, which I would like for Shifters to keep, unfocused of course. I think now if I remember right, it is one variable, True or False, to keep temp properties on shifting.
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EE Update
Apr 18, 2020 16:35:20 GMT
via mobile
Post by donojono on Apr 18, 2020 16:35:20 GMT
I agree that 10 apr is not bad the issue is low monk level needed so maybe I got the build split wrong though even 1 monk is enough
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Post by chreelister on Apr 18, 2020 16:39:10 GMT
On making character classes more powerful and/or enabling Feats, I think I will wait until the server becomes live and then do a poll. Then go from there.
I am more interested in nerfing stuff now, before someone gets to level 40, starts doing good and then nerf them and ruin all the time and gold invested that they have in that character. I wouldn't do that and that is why I haven't done that now. The only 2 so far I can think of, is the puissant focused and unfocused and Barbarians, Rage damage bonus, I think should be lowered say 25-33% and Terrifying Rage DC, needs lowered the same. If you guys think of anything else that needs nerfed, that is what I need to do before going live.
Also interested in what items need to be removed or nerfed now. We already have a good list. Because once you get an item, its almost too late to do anything. Some of things here caused some issues, were people thought some items were too powerful, but you couldn't really remove the item or nerf it too hard, after some people traded away an entire life fortune just to get the item.
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EE Update
Apr 18, 2020 16:44:58 GMT
via mobile
Post by donojono on Apr 18, 2020 16:44:58 GMT
I would reset a lot of shifter weapons Kobold and shadow also nerfed bad in the past so then they useless and remove pussiant from them many many weapons feats and abilities where removed where as that is a great way to have variety of the shifter class. The barb rage the issue is the heal only for me and the apr . If u remove pussiant from Risen I would like his dr immunity and weapon restored though .
I would also remove drones and make summons better.
Also I am a fan of removing all immunity from items and any items that cast any spells if u want the spell make the caster the only thing I would like to see kept is Rez scrolls. All death potions and shadow rods gone anything they casts mantle gone or atleast u must meet the umd or the base class to use it and even invisibility item . And then try to do more to encourage Party play a paladin to help u against fear a cleric for death ward or get saves . I would try to make it more dnd style then dps style which is is now
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Post by taroc on Apr 18, 2020 18:09:44 GMT
Epic Dodge - how it's supposed to work - you dodge any attack from your opponent's first attack in a round that would have otherwise hit you. How it actually worked - you dodged the first attack that lands in a round, taking no damage (not necessarily the first attack, just the first hit). How it could be exploited: Played on a PvP duelling server, made a high AC, low AB ED monk. Turned on flurry of blows and Empty Body. Left the room, made a coffee, came back 20 minutes later to find I'd won, taking little to no damage - rolled more natural 20's than whoever I was fighting, and when they actually got a 20, ED negated the damage. If you wanted to be a bit more 'hands on', there are things you can do to provoke natural 20's making use of NWN's loaded dice. Epic Dodge was fixed a while ago in vanilla NWN, and is fixed in NWN-EE. Concerns were that HIPS combined with ED would be overpowered, especially in PvP, however doesn't really give that much advantage in both PvP or PVM, I've played on other servers with a character that has ED and HIPS, not much difference to how it stands now: HIPS > no TS; has TS > HIPS. I think adding it to 3T would make high AC builds have some chance of survival in areas traditionally only explored by high DR crit immunes. Epic Dodge also requires significant investment to gain it. In terms of PvP, shifters can't get it, so would give dex based characters a better chance vs things like air elementals. I thought Shifters could get it. I thought I made a build on paper, that took it, I think it was using Risen shape for open Dex. But it looked like it wouldn't be that good or is that what you meant? I get what you are saying about HIPS versus TS. HIPS is better, even a lot better with ED unless the creature has TS, then its worse, even with ED. I think the Devs back in the day thought, HIPS + ED = never ever getting hit, but with all the TS floating around it probably won't matter.
You would need either 13 rogue or 10 SD levels (or 9 monk and 5 sd + druid shapes and no shifter levels) to get ED on a shifter, and you'd lose all the extra fighter feats you'd get that help towards making puissant so good as things stand now. Given that risens have very low AC, it wouldn't be sensible to put ED on a risen. Epic Dodge only applies to the current enemy you're fighting so when you're surrounded by mobs in end game areas it isn't really all that useful, especially when considering the requirements to get it. I wouldn't even change my dex monk's build to get it.
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Post by Rijnius on Apr 19, 2020 7:46:59 GMT
On making character classes more powerful and/or enabling Feats, I think I will wait until the server becomes live and then do a poll. Then go from there. I am more interested in nerfing stuff now, before someone gets to level 40, starts doing good and then nerf them and ruin all the time and gold invested that they have in that character. I wouldn't do that and that is why I haven't done that now. The only 2 so far I can think of, is the puissant focused and unfocused and Barbarians, Rage damage bonus, I think should be lowered say 25-33% and Terrifying Rage DC, needs lowered the same. If you guys think of anything else that needs nerfed, that is what I need to do before going live. Also interested in what items need to be removed or nerfed now. We already have a good list. Because once you get an item, its almost too late to do anything. Some of things here caused some issues, were people thought some items were too powerful, but you couldn't really remove the item or nerf it too hard, after some people traded away an entire life fortune just to get the item.
I would get rid of the +7/15 helmet for the same reason as for the drone widget.
An personally, I would also like to have immunity items completely removed or changed. That includes removing ALL immunities on random items and especially the fear immunity on inquisitor staff. To even things out, you could consider lowering the number of buffs stripped/dispelled by mords etc., so you don't lose everything by a single spell. That would make things more dynamic and might encourage party play as donojono pointed out earlier.
Give the defense widget 3 sets of potions to use per rest (instead of 2) to help out toons without class access to these abilities when a party is not available.
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Post by psv38 on Apr 19, 2020 9:14:21 GMT
I am all for getting rid of all immunity items. I for one, have found 3 items with mind immunity through the random item system and even 1 item with death immunity. I don't use them on any of my builds and I would have no problems not having them in the EE version. In that vein, please consider removing that infernal broken cloak for the EE version that the bard cursers use (for here it's fine), and remove all items with drones on them or drones altogether, hehe.
Secondly, please don't be too harsh on nerfing shifters, remember they don't get drones (unless of course they are discontinued for the EE version) and they can't use any items while shifted such as sequencer rods, wonder rods, ii rods (yes, they can use pots), can't rez people in people, can't recast buffs if/when dispelled, etc.
I would follow donojono in his idea of resetting a lot shifter weps then, which would help preepic and early epic leveling if the puis bonus is nerfed. Also maybe rework how the wis bonus to ac works based on monk levels, maybe enhance that a bit.
Oh, and as for monks, you were working on a concept for 3T (which I assume is now null in void) whereby the monk could use certain weps (I think q-staff and maybe spear were suggested) where the monk would retain it's base attack schedule (-3 ab per subsequent attack instead of the standard -5) and attacks per round, and that these weps could be finessed to enable them for dex builds (maybe have q-staff as that wep as that seems to be a classic monk wep), can this be considered for the EE version?
And lastly, everyone knows I love my shifters, so my propasal is this, maybe for the EE version try to see if more of the shifter options could be enhanced, such as the slaad (i could imagine a cool monk based build for that one), the vampire (maybe a DD version of that) etc...
Thanks for all you do to keep this community going Chree!!
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Post by perrit on Apr 19, 2020 11:17:35 GMT
Rij doing AC toons and hell will freeze well if he does it'll be a crit immune ac toon
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